--- Log opened mié abr 06 00:00:12 2022 03:00 < fikabot> 💬 Server probably blocked? --- Log closed mié abr 06 04:15:33 2022 --- Log opened mié abr 06 04:15:42 2022 04:15 -!- Irssi: #friendica: Total of 9 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 9 normal] 04:15 -!- Irssi: Join to #friendica was synced in 16 secs 05:09 < fikabot> 💬 where can I change the smtp server in Friendica? I installed Friendica a while ago and can't remember 05:11 < fikabot> 💬 I think it still use the system's smtp server.... 05:13 < fikabot> 💬 unless you have activated the phpmailer addon https://github.com/friendica/friendica-addons/tree/stable/phpmailer 05:16 < fikabot> 💬 i did ist with postfix 06:00 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [xmpp] unless you have activated the phpmailer addon https://github.com/friendica/friendica-addons/tree/stable/phpmailer 06:00 < fikabot> 💬 06:00 < fikabot> 💬 i try these addon but nothing happend. have i run special command to get ist work? 06:01 < fikabot> 💬 you need to edit config/addon.config.php file in your friendica installation as described in addon README 06:02 < fikabot> 💬 once you activate the addon, mails should be sent via configured smtp 06:02 < tyil> I set up a friendica instance at fedi.tyil.nl, how long does it usually take before you start seeing posts from other instances? 06:02 < tyil> on pleroma it took about 10 minutes, but it doesnt seem to be as fast here 06:03 < fikabot> 💬 you need to follow someone to get posts 06:04 < tyil> I did follow someone on freespeechextremist.com, so I expected some stuff to show up in the global community 06:05 < fikabot> 💬 You will only receive _new_ posts posted in the accounts posted there. 06:05 < fikabot> 💬 You do have the option to manually fetch posts if you want to reply to a former one. Just copy & paste its URL to the search box. 06:05 < tyil> oh, that's nice 06:05 < tyil> I'll try that :> 06:07 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [xmpp] you need to edit config/addon.config.php file in your friendica installation as described in addon README 06:07 < fikabot> 💬 06:07 < fikabot> 💬 yes but i can't find the file 06:07 < fikabot> 💬 Olaf there should be a file name "addon-sample.config.php". 06:07 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [xmpp] Olaf there should be a file name "addon-sample.config.php". 06:08 < fikabot> 💬 06:08 < fikabot> 💬 yes it ist 06:08 < fikabot> 💬 just copy it, rename it as "addon.config.php" and edit it as needed 06:08 < fikabot> 💬 yes it is 06:22 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [xmpp] just copy it, rename it as "addon.config.php" and edit it as needed 06:22 < fikabot> 💬 06:22 < fikabot> 💬 will not work 09:24 < tyil> it looks like http://friendica-themes.com/ is broken, https doesn't work and http is giving me a connection reset 09:24 < tyil> (its linked on https://github.com/friendica/friendica/blob/develop/doc/themes.md) 09:29 < fikabot> 💬 https://web.archive.org/web/20191005235701/https://friendica-themes.com/doku.php --- Log opened mié abr 06 10:50:10 2022 10:50 -!- Irssi: #friendica: Total of 9 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 9 normal] 10:50 -!- Irssi: Join to #friendica was synced in 18 secs 12:17 < fikabot> 💬 What's the XMPP address of this room? 12:19 < fikabot> 💬 As per the discription it is forum.friendi.ca on XMPP 12:20 < fikabot> 💬 But how can just forum.friendi.ca be a room address? 12:23 < fikabot> 💬 is support@forum.friendi.ca 12:25 < fikabot> 💬 (see 'Friendica Support' forum profile https://forum.friendi.ca/profile/helpers/profile ) 12:29 < fikabot> 💬 fabrixxm: thanks! I joined the XMPP room. 12:29 < fikabot> 💬 👍 12:30 < fikabot> 💬 Oh, right, sorry about that. I noticed that few months ago but forgot to update the description. 😄 12:31 < fikabot> 💬 Do you use XMPP a lot? Do you miss the XMPP addons in Friendica (did you use it in the past perhaps)? 12:37 < fikabot> 💬 I'm new to XMPP, I started using it today 😅 12:38 < fikabot> 💬 XMPP add-on on Friendica sounds fun. 12:39 < fikabot> 💬 Then friendica will become more like Movim, no? 12:45 < fikabot> 💬 Unfortunately, after being available for quite some years, the last release just dropped support a few weeks ago due to lack of demand. 😥 12:46 < fikabot> 💬 https://friendi.ca/2022/02/06/friendica-2022-02-released/#how-to-update 12:47 < fikabot> 💬 It was quite an hack. It was a js client runnin in browser. that means that it reconnect at every page reload. And no support for omemo. 12:48 < fikabot> 💬 and it was poorly integrated with the AP ecosystem. It was adding contacts to the roster via DFRN specific fields (DFRN is the original protocol of Friendica, which predates ActivityPub) 12:49 < fikabot> 💬 If the default Friendica was an SPA, such reconnection would not happen. 12:49 < fikabot> 💬 If the default Friendica web interface was an SPA, such reconnection would not happen. 12:50 < fikabot> 💬 Note that AP itself has no concept of E2EE either, so the OMEMO part is moot. 12:50 < fikabot> 💬 There was an addon for Hubzilla to demo E2EE over the fediverse, though. I think that's kind of cool. 12:51 < fikabot> 💬 not so much, I'm using omemo with 95% of my xmpp contacts. not supporting omemo means that 95% of my conversations are unreadable 12:52 < fikabot> 💬 (and I, for one, hate spa applications. but that's me) 13:08 < tyil> not just you ;D 13:19 < fikabot> 💬 Which ones do you hate and why exactly? One can implement any web application either way, but if you go the extra mile with service workers, an SPA could work very well offline and would consume much less network bandwidth. 13:20 < fikabot> 💬 Also, did you know that you can implement an SPA even without JavaScript? See https://bkil.gitlab.io/secuchart/ 13:20 < tyil> I like my web to be light-weight and highly portable 13:21 < tyil> SPAs generally have a much higher up-front bandwidth cost if the user only wanted to read a single page 13:21 < tyil> also it makes history more messy, and linking to a single static page is often impossible 13:21 < tyil> and using existing tooling like curl are completely out of the window 13:21 < fikabot> 💬 Do you find it to be a common case in Friendica that you only read a single page and nothing else at all (no images, no comments, no related posts, no user profiles, etc)? 13:21 < tyil> in my experience, they also play very badly when youre on an unstable network connection 13:22 < fikabot> 💬 What makes an SPA-based architecture non-portable or heavy on your opinion? 13:22 < fikabot> 💬 Dm for carding tutorials 13:22 < fikabot> 💬 You can implement history in multiple ways. I myself prefer to use state coded in anchors, but there are other ways. 13:22 < fikabot> 💬 Like the #! AJAX bangpath preferred by crawlers in the past. 13:22 < tyil> I've been using Friendica for a couple hours now, so not yet, but if I may compare it to my use of Pleroma, it is actually quite common to want to link to a single post of someone 13:23 < tyil> the non-portability is already partly covered in not being able to just curl a page and get the actual page the user would experience 13:23 < fikabot> 💬 And do you think that the other person will never open anything on your instance for a year to come? 13:23 < tyil> those chances certainly exist, and this would also require that all posts are specifically on my server, which isn't that common on a federated network 13:24 < tyil> I prefer to link to the actual source, not my copy of it 13:24 < fikabot> 💬 And also, if the common part of the Friendica SPA app was hosted from a CDN, _any_ friendica instance could utilize the exact same code, they would not have to visit _your_ instance multiple times. 13:24 < tyil> I also strongly despise CDNs, they're a privacy nightmare 13:24 < tyil> they also strongly encourage a more centralized web, which is exactly not what we should want 13:24 < fikabot> 💬 What percentage of users uses curl to read web pages (other than you and me)? 13:25 < tyil> no clue, you asked me what *I* disliked about SPAs, not what percentage of the world population agrees completely with my viewpoints 13:25 < fikabot> 💬 You do realize that we can operate our own CDN's as well? There was even Coral CDN that was operated by volunteers, but you can find a bunch of third party ones even today: https://gitlab.com/bkil/freedom-fighters/-/blob/master/hu/free-content-delivery-network.md 13:26 < tyil> if everyone operates their own CDN, the argument that everyone utilized the same exact code becomes moot again 13:26 < fikabot> 💬 You do realize that server side rendering is supported by multiple frameworks already (and also available from 3 providers within their free tiers for all the rest), i.e., you can either curls example.com/post/123 or visit example.com/#!post/123 13:26 < tyil> the whole point of a CDN is to centralize, which isn't positive in my opinion 13:26 < tyil> yeah, so I can't just use the same URLs, which seems to agree with my point 13:26 < fikabot> 💬 And the latter would be the more efficient one visited by users, while the former would be the one visited by robots, crawlers and curl. 13:26 < fikabot> 💬 No, CDN is about sharing. 13:27 < fikabot> 💬 You could just as well implement a CDN via WebTorrent 13:27 < fikabot> 💬 And then your site visitors would reseed your web assets, but I think we are getting a little far from our original point. 😄 13:27 < tyil> you could also not needlessly increase complexity and hurt user privacy by just not using a CDN 13:27 < fikabot> 💬 (Or similarly to Coral CDN, any volunteer might want to deploy one in their country to reduce latency for everyone) 13:28 < fikabot> 💬 Using a CDN allows for hosting at scale on tiny SBC platforms or limited (free) PaaS providers. 13:28 < tyil> idk I think my 5kb blog can be hosted at scale just fine too 13:28 < fikabot> 💬 Some tiers provide as low as 1000 visits/month or 5000 hits/month, but Friendica is not very efficient currently in this aspect. It takes megabytes to load a page and hundreds of requests... 13:28 < tyil> a CDN is a (bad) solution to the problem of ever-increasing bloat in web apps 13:29 < fikabot> 💬 Got a link to your blog? 13:29 < tyil> tyil.nl 13:29 < fikabot> 💬 Please check this https://www.localcdn.org/ 13:29 < tyil> there's a lot of value in simplicity 13:29 < fikabot> 💬 If you install this addon on your computer (and/or within your intranet for your village), anybody could benefit from the shared assets while reducing the uplink of your village. 13:30 < fikabot> 💬 If we are talking about wifi mesh or satellite internet for example. 13:30 < tyil> yes, or you could just not make huge assets that "require" such solutions 13:30 < fikabot> 💬 Have you seen the current source code of Friendica? I would not describe it simple. 13:31 < fikabot> 💬 Care to submit a PR perhaps to improve Friendica in this aspect? It is far more difficult being done than said. 13:31 < tyil> that's correct, I didn't say it was, I'm saying CDNs are a pretend solution to a problem that's better solved at the source 13:31 < fikabot> 💬 I've reviewed and accounted every single file within a project just last year and I was baffled. 13:33 < fikabot> 💬 This is what I have in mind and consider a very good architecture, you may know it as unhosted web apps or JAMstack https://github.com/bkil/freedom-fighters/blob/master/en/server/backend-optional-web-apps.md 13:34 < fikabot> 💬 Note that to get started with localstorage and service workers within your app, it takes like 1 kilobyte or 2. Not sure where you got the idea that it is something complicated from. 13:36 < fikabot> 💬 Here's an example, although it is bloated by using React a bit https://insin.github.io/react-hn/ 13:36 < tyil> react is pretty huge 13:37 < fikabot> 💬 Check these out https://codebase.show/projects/realworld 13:37 < tyil> I prefer "apps" like sourcehut, which are small and efficient, and dont require all sorts of complex front-end solutions to be snappy 13:37 < fikabot> 💬 I didn't say we should use React, but again, ~50 kB isn't considered that big nowadays for an app. An image weighs more than that. Heck, did you check how much Friendica weighs? 13:38 < tyil> it is true that the average website nowadays is absolute garbage 13:38 < tyil> but that doesn't mean that we should lower standards 13:39 < fikabot> 💬 And simplicity is one thing, but consider the user experience. It takes many seconds to load a Friendica page nowadays as is. If the app was already loaded and only the few kb of post and the 50kB of picture would need to be fetched by it, painting could take 100's of ms instead. 13:39 < fikabot> 💬 I would say that it results in _higher_ standards, not lower. 13:39 < tyil> with the original page load taking many more seconds, *especially* on a dodgy connection 13:40 < tyil> its all great fun that most people have very stable 100mbit+ connections, but that's not everyone, and not all the time either 13:40 < tyil> I find it a little rude to just say "you must be at least *this* rich to enjoy the web" 13:40 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] yeah, so I can't just use the same URLs, which seems to agree with my point 13:40 < fikabot> 💬 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 But you can - it only takes a couple of lines of JavaScript to detect how it was opened, and then you would see the prerendered content on the deep link, but all further interactions and links would direct JavaScript-enabled users to more efficient pages in the future. This is called progressive enhancement I understand that not everyone knows this. 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] with the original page load taking many more seconds, *especially* on a dodgy connection 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 What are you talking about? 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 Code splitting is also a thing. 13:41 < fikabot> 💬 You can make an SPA app that weighs 14 kB and only loads in the rest when the related functionality is needed (i.e.., gallery view, settings panel, whatever) 13:42 < fikabot> 💬 Here's this framework for it: http://vanilla-js.com/ 13:42 < tyil> I'm on a dodgy connection right now, simple things like irc and light-weight websites work just fine, albeit a tad slow 13:42 < tyil> SPAs take ages to load, and one or two failed requests make it refuse to work at all 13:43 < tyil> on my home connection with 1gbit I don't notice this at all, but that's not something everyone just has or can even afford if they wanted to 13:45 < tyil> similar with cpu costs of a simple site vs a webapp, something on my desktop with 24 cores doesn't really feel, but a cheap 8yo laptop will very much struggle with if it needs to wade through a load of javascript just to render text 13:49 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] if everyone operates their own CDN, the argument that everyone utilized the same exact code becomes moot again 13:49 < fikabot> 💬 13:49 < fikabot> 💬 On the contrary. If you published your app to an app store or library store (like friendica-2022.03-common.min.js, friendica-2022.03-visitor.min.js friendica-2022.03-gallery.min.js friendica-2022.03-account.min.js friendica-2022.03-addons.min.js, etc), any volunteer could operate a mirror of this set (see the above link how many library mirrors already exist). And your app could 13:50 < fikabot> 💬 be set up to only use those CDN's who you trust (either via a browser addon, within the SPA, a proxy, or some other way). 13:50 < tyil> that's again a solution to a problem created by wanting a CDN in the first place 13:51 < tyil> none of this would be needed if you instead just didn't need one to get acceptable performance 13:51 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] similar with cpu costs of a simple site vs a webapp, something on my desktop with 24 cores doesn't really feel, but a cheap 8yo laptop will very much struggle with if it needs to wade through a load of javascript just to render text 13:51 < fikabot> 💬 13:51 < fikabot> 💬 You may not be a web dev so you didn't understand what I told you above, feel free to read this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement 13:52 < tyil> I am aware of all the bad ideas web devs have flung into the wild web, sadly 13:52 < fikabot> 💬 The point is that in such architecture, the client downloads rendered HTML content at first and/or to clients who request it and only provide client side rendering where it would improve UX (latency and page load time) on the client. 13:52 < tyil> you don't need to be a webdev in order to have noticed websites are getting slower, even though internet speeds have gotten over 10000 times faster 13:53 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] none of this would be needed if you instead just didn't need one to get acceptable performance 13:53 < fikabot> 💬 13:53 < fikabot> 💬 You were not around when we discussed it last year, but you will see after a bit of operations, that if you start sharing a few MB pictures every once in a while and you have a plausible amount of followers (like in the hundreds), usually on separate instances, they can easily DDoS your instance when they fetch your content right now. 13:54 < fikabot> 💬 See this issue https://github.com/friendica/friendica/issues/10071 13:54 < tyil> yes, I am also aware of how a DDoS works 13:55 < fikabot> 💬 Some prefer to host at home (though that's not usually compliant with the terms of service), but uplinks are usually not that great at home, and in such situation, this problem gets worse. 13:55 < tyil> I'm not one for sharing large pictures very often, and I'm also noticing that while you started off about SPAs in general, you've turned to only consider Friendica in arguments 13:56 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] none of this would be needed if you instead just didn't need one to get acceptable performance 13:56 < fikabot> 💬 13:56 < fikabot> 💬 With smart clients, you are trading off CPU cycles from the server to the client. This means you may get away with being able to use a free PHP web hosting server or a $1/month VPS to host all your stuff without hitting bottlenecks. 13:56 < fikabot> 💬 This is sustainability in the bigger picture. 13:57 < tyil> I dont think making it easier to burn more CPU cycles is sustainability 13:57 < tyil> just because youre not paying for it, but every user is now 13:57 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] I'm not one for sharing large pictures very often, and I'm also noticing that while you started off about SPAs in general, you've turned to only consider Friendica in arguments 13:57 < fikabot> 💬 13:57 < fikabot> 💬 Because we're in the Friendica room and we have no influence whatsoever of what random websites are doing, but we _can_ submit a PR here to improve _our_ quality of life. 13:58 < fikabot> 💬 I know very well how random websites are being implemented, I look through the source pretty often. 13:58 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] just because youre not paying for it, but every user is now 13:58 < fikabot> 💬 13:58 < fikabot> 💬 How will you finance your server to server 1000 _active_ users within your friends & family? 13:59 < fikabot> 💬 Assume that you will need to host everything for them, not just cat pictures. I.e., to provide an alternative to big tech for every possible service they currently have. 13:59 < fikabot> 💬 We have not been able to come up with a comfortable answer as of now, because such an install _will_ cost quite a bit of money and people had been conditions not to pay for things. 14:00 < fikabot> 💬 The best answer we came up so far is to trivialize the cost of the server so that a single person could finance it (or two). If you have a better idea, we're all ears. 14:01 < fikabot> 💬 This is only possible by moving out responsibility and intelligence from the server to the clients (especially if they are not battery powered). 14:04 < fikabot> 💬 By the way, did you open the secuchart link I sent you? Do realize that the chart is only to get bigger, about 10-20x bigger in the end, but it is already sluggish without JavaScript. With client side rendering, it would take 50% as much data to download and could keep only the parts visible within the viewport rendered, making it non-sluggish. 14:05 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [xmpp] (and I, for one, hate spa applications. but that's me) 14:05 < fikabot> 💬 14:05 < fikabot> 💬 So could you, as a developer, share your reasoning as well? I would be real curious. 14:45 < fikabot> 💬 I think browsers are good at doing browsers. Breaking things reinventing the wheel doing the same tasks but in a slightly different way every time is stupid. And against user experience. While there are cases where a spa could be useful, I think of a web application which must work like a native one (and I would got for the native one anyway), in our case I see Fiendica as a web 14:45 < fikabot> 💬 site, not a web application. And a website doesn't need to be a spa. 14:47 < fikabot> 💬 I want my history and loading progress bar handled by the browser chrome. I want deep-links. Real deep links. And yes, I'm curl-ing friendica pages quite often, to get ActivityStream version of posts. 14:50 < fikabot> 💬 I want my friendica node to be usable on my underpower third-hand android device (or my Jolla 1 when it was still functioning) 14:53 < fikabot> 💬 I'm not against JS in the browser. but IMHO a good website should have all of the basic functionality still working with JS disabled. Averything else is just a plus. Nice to have, but not fundamental. 14:55 < fikabot> 💬 And last but not least I quite hate the JS ecosystem. I hate nodejs, npm yarn webpack and every new "cool tech" that every two weeks everybody _have_ to use. 14:56 < fikabot> 💬 But hey, that's me. 15:25 < fikabot> 💬 The reduced use of JS was one of the main reason why I chose Friendica and keep using it. If it doesn't work without JS, I would leave. And I use JavaScript extensly myself in my software projects... 16:15 < fikabot> 💬 Just to get some facts straight, Friendica currently buffers and renders a whole page on the backend for multiple seconds without showing anything and only then transmits the end result instantly, so you never had any progress indication in the past, while you could show some form of progress indication in an SPA. 16:15 < fikabot> 💬 The majority of Friendica users who we have encountered here (and other places) use the web interface and don't even know that desktop and mobile apps are available for installation. 16:15 < fikabot> 💬 You can create web apps without a web ecosystem (see secuchart), although I _do_ think that certain parts of the web ecosystem could be put to good use in serious projects. 16:16 < fikabot> 💬 I think we are all on the same page then. I suggested that **none** of the following should stop working (1) without Javascript (2) deep links (3) history back-forward button (4) visited link coloring (5) ActivityStream endpoints (on the contrary - JAMstack builds upon such raw, light endpoints) (6) good performance on old devices supported by security patches (Android 8+ or ~Pen 16:16 < fikabot> 💬 tium 4 - less capable than a Jolla). 16:20 < fikabot> 💬 On the other end of the spectrum, I just wanted to propose that we could create an alternative Friendica frontend (addon) that outputs gemini (over HTTP) to support even microcontrollers - it would be a first among any fediverse server and a real progress towards accessibility. 17:16 < fikabot> 💬 Could you use brutaldon as a frontend since Friendica interacts with Mastodon app APIs now? 17:41 < fikabot> 💬 I don't see why you couldn't. Feel free to share your experiences if test it! 17:49 < fikabot> 💬 I don't see why you couldn't. Feel free to share your experiences after you test it! 18:58 < fikabot> 💬 JAMstack goes on the same box of npm and the likes. sorry. 🙂 19:02 < fikabot> 💬 JB Carroll: yes you should can. I've tried https://pinafore.social/ some time ago. 21:38 < fikabot> 💬 > <@fikabot:matrix.org> 💬 [libera] it looks like http://friendica-themes.com/ is broken, https doesn't work and http is giving me a connection reset 21:38 < fikabot> 💬 21:38 < fikabot> 💬 Fixed! https://github.com/friendica/friendica/pull/11397 22:21 < fikabot> 💬 I just opened a random Friendica post https://fc.leemhuis.info/display/b843879c-1562-4d96-aa41-5dd190489027 It took more than 2.5-4.5 seconds to load & idle and transferred 1.6MB in 65 requests The photo of the author took 20+6 kB, while the jpeg showing the text took 413kB. 22:22 < fikabot> 💬 Then after opening a second article took 26kB transferred (let's pretend all caching headers were set up correctly), of which the content div took 6kB, but that's also mostly cruft - would have taken <1kB in JSON https://fc.leemhuis.info/display/b843879c-1762-4c64-9327-a92712022355 --- Log closed jue abr 07 00:00:57 2022